The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:00 with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting.The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Social Justice, and the first question is from Vikki Howells.

Welsh Benefits Charter

Vikki Howells AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh benefits charter? OQ60773

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Vikki Howells, for that question. The Welsh benefits charter, with its commitments for a person-centred, compassionate and accessible Welsh benefits system, was launched in January. Work on turning the commitments into actions is being led by a steering group of experts, who will publish their implementation plan this summer.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you for that update, Minister. It is vital that people are supported in a way that ensures they are able to receive every benefit they are entitled to, and I know that this is, of course, your ambition. In my own local authority of Rhondda Cynon Taf, that work has included digital access to application forms, training and signposting arrangements for all staff, utilising Department for Work and Pensions data to commence council tax reduction entitlement, data sharing between council services to encourage free-school-meal and school essentials grant take-up, and automated cost-of-living and energy payments where possible. So, can I ask, Minister, what collaborative work is being undertaken between the Welsh Government and local authorities across Wales to ensure that these examples of best practice are being replicated?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for that question. Collaboration with local authorities and the Welsh Local Government Association, particularly, is the foundation upon which we've launched this charter, which all 22 local authorities have signed up to. And it's very helpful and excellent to hear what Rhondda Cynon Taf council is doing, because this is rolling out across Wales those examples of how local authorities are taking this forward, particularly ensuring that people can have access to benefits they're entitled to.
I was also very pleased to launch the charter in Torfaen's Blaenavon Resource Centre with the designated Member, Siân Gwenllian, and, indeed, we met there the leader, Councillor Anthony Hunt, and spokesperson for the WLGA in terms of finance. And also, more recently, visiting Carmarthenshire and meeting the leader, Councillor Darren Price, and all his staff doing very similar sort of work as well in reaching out in their communities—. So, this is about the Partnership Council for Wales, 22 local authority leaders, close working, and also an independent group, chaired by Fran Targett, looking at how we can implement this consistently across Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: Questioning you here previously on the Welsh benefits charter, I noted that although, for almost a decade, the sector had been calling for a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits the Welsh Government is responsible for, as had I, the Welsh Local Government Association had issued a press release making clear that far from being the launch of a Welsh benefits system, local authorities only agreed to work with the Welsh Government to take action towards developing one. I therefore asked you whether you had a timescale for the introduction of a Welsh benefits system, and, if so, what targets would be in place to measure progress. I also asked you whether the 22 local authorities had agreed to implement a Welsh benefits system on a uniform basis across Wales to avoid a postcode lottery, and, critically, how you will monitor implementation and practice to ensure effectiveness, efficiency and target outcomes.In your reply, you stated only that the steering group will produce an action plan by the summer. Well, every viable commercial or social business has a business plan with targets, timescales and review dates. You're the Minister in charge, so what are the Welsh Government's targets, timescales and review dates?

Jane Hutt AC: I do hope, because you have questioned me on this before, Mark Isherwood, that you do recognise this is a major step forward in terms of the implementation of a Welsh benefits charter, but it is a first step in the journey to ensure that we do have a Welsh benefits system which, as I said, is compassionate, person centred, and actually enables people to secure their entitlements and rights to financial support. There's a specific commitment within the charter for local authorities to adapt processes to meet individual needs. We've heard what Rhondda Cynon Tafcouncil is doing. We heard that in Torfaen and, indeed, in Carmarthenshire as well.
It is work to streamline the Welsh benefits system, and, of course, it's starting with those key benefits in terms of access to council tax reduction benefits, free school meals and the school essentials grant. It is going to report to the partnership council for Wales, and on the external group, which has already met within days of us launching the charter, chaired by Fran Targett, formerly of Citizens Advice Cymru, are leading members from local government, particularly people on the front line. I think that’s what we found in visiting local authorities, that it’s the people on the front line in the revenue and benefits section who are actually delivering this, in partnership with all of those advice givers, like Citizens Advice, to make sure that it can be delivered effectively.

LGBTQ+ Action Plan

Hefin David AC: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on delivery of the 'LGBTQ+ Action Plan for Wales'? OQ60777

Hannah Blythyn AC: Since publishing ourLGBTQ+ action plan, we are working with partners to implement actions in the plan. Alongside this, we have published anLGBTQ+ action plan tracker, so that everyone can monitor progress. The tracker also provides information on services to support Wales'sLGBTQ+ communities.

Hefin David AC: The Deputy Minister very kindly met with my constituent Sean Donovan and his mother, Sarah, last autumn to hear about his experiences as a young trans man in Wales. She'll be aware of the BBC news story over the weekend that told Sean's story and his campaign for better access to help for children and young people in Wales with gender dysphoria so they do not have to travel to access services in England, where services are still insufficient. The Welsh Government's pioneering LGBTQ+ action plan contains a commitment to deliver a Welsh gender service, which would help to address this lack of provision. However, it is a little concerning to read in the BBC story that the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee said that there were no immediate plans to develop a Wales-specific service. Does the Deputy Minister therefore agree that it is time for that committee to start making such plans, and will she work with her colleague the Minister for Health and Social Services to ensure that this commitment is delivered on in line with the action plan and recent calls from the Children's Commissioner for Wales?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Hefin David for not just his interest in this matter, but actually his absolute commitment to this, and the support that he's provided for Sean and for his mother, Sarah, as well? It was a privilege to have the opportunity to meet both of them some time ago now, and I know that you've since followed that up with a letter, and Sean has very helpfully, very kindly shared some of his experiences, because I think that's often difficult to do, but it's incredibly important to make sure the things that we're doing in the plan are the things that the community wants and needs. It's so important that they are shaped by those lived experiences, whether that's what we could do to build on our inclusive education within schools, the forthcoming transgender guidance for schools as well to support young people there, and how we can share that best practice that we've seen in schools I've visited, which have got really good clubs and safe spaces for young people, and which are supporting teachers to support those young people through their experiences and journeys. We're proud of the plan. There are 46 actions in the plan that have been agreed across Government, and we're absolutely committed to improving that gender identity service for children and young people in Wales, recognising the work that's already been done on an adult service. I'm absolutely committed to working with my colleague the Minister for Health and Social Services to take that work forward. And, on the things that Sean has said, it really is important and I really want to see a service in Wales that supports and is shaped by people's experiences in a way that meets the needs of the community here in Wales. I think the first year following that action plan has been about putting those foundation blocks in place, and now we need to build on that. I absolutely look forward to building on that work under a future First Minister as well.

Gareth Davies AS: The Welsh Government commissioned Stonewall Cymru to carry out their stakeholder engagement sessions, and indeed the LGBTQ action plan references Stonewall data throughout. Furthermore, organisations such as the LGB Alliance Cymru and Merched Cymru requested to be part of the independent expert panel, but were ignored, sadly. We are now seeing swathes of organisations cutting ties with Stonewall due to their practices as a charity. We've seen University College London, the London Schools of Economics, Channel 4, Ofsted and the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and many more, all cut ties with Stonewall in the last few years. Aside from the poor value for money, reasons cited for the flood of disaffiliations include concerns that Stonewall adopt radical positions not necessarily reflective of the LGBT community as a whole, and they have been accused of giving advice that misinterprets or contravenes the Equality Act. I'm sure, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the Deputy Minister can appreciate that it is important to consult a wide range of experts and views on important matters, and that decisions are not made based on the view of one organisation alone. I can see you crossing your arms quite informally there.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to ask your question now.

Gareth Davies AS: Yes, I will. In light of the concerns regarding Stonewall's conduct, will the Welsh Government reassess their relationship with them and their suitability for public grants, and ensure that consultations involve a wider variety of organisations in the future that best represent the views of the LGBT community?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I have to say, Dirprwy Lywydd—you can hear the reactions in the Siambr here—that I'm really proud of the work we've been able to do, within the Siambr, in Wales, in our Senedd, by working together to create a better Wales for all of our LGBTQ+ community. And we're absolutely clear that that is within, and with, the entire LGBTQ+ community, which is why we work with inclusive organisationssuch as Stonewall, and a range of stakeholders and, more importantly, those voices of the LGBTQ+ community itself, because it's that saying, 'Nothing about us without us'. It's really important that we take that inclusive, holistic approach, and that we work together to implement those 46 actions in the plan and work for Wales.
The Members is muttering at me now, but, I have to say, Gareth, I'm really disappointed by your line of questioning. It's a cheap shot. You're playing to the gallery, targeting organisations that have a long and proud history of supporting, advocating and campaigning for the LGBTQ+ community.

Adam Price AC: Can I support the Minister in rejecting the transphobia of the modern Conservative Party? We've talked previously, haven't we, Minister, about the possibility of incorporating Wales in the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association Europe's rainbow map and index, which rank European countries according to their support for LGBT+ rights. ILGA-Europe are telling me that information that they receive on Wales will be included on their rainbow map website this year, but they go on to say,
'We will not and cannot publish a separate region-by-region breakdown, including for Wales, but it would be relatively straightforward, from the downloadable data on our website, to create this for Wales.'
Given that they say it will be relatively straightforward, could the Welsh Government actually do that for Wales, in readiness for 17 May, the International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia, when the map and the index will be published?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Could I thank Adam Price for the question? I know this is, as you say, an area that we've discussed both within this Siambr previously and outside, as well. As you say, a key part of the action plan is about how we not only advocate internationally, but learn from other countries and also demonstrate that we're taking a different approach in Wales, and one that we've worked in co-operation and in partnership to achieve, and that differs, sadly, from the approach we see all around the world where our rights are sadly at risk of being rolled back—and, sadly, closer to home in some instances, as well. So, we absolutely commit to taking up the point that Adam Price raised to see what we can do ahead 17 May. Of course, that may not be my responsibility by then, but I hope that whoever is in place will make sure they take that work forward and continue to build on the work that we've already done.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I now call the party spokespeople. First of all, we have the Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, sadly, recent events around the world are having a dramatic impact on community cohesion here in Wales. Although there is nothing we can do to force both sides in the Gaza conflict to stop the horrendous killing, apart from praying for peace, we can act to prevent the killing in the middle east from destroying interfaith relations here at home. Minister, what actions are the Welsh Government taking to ensure events happening elsewhere do not impact religious tolerance and freedom in Wales? How are you working with community and faith leaders across the nation to promote and protect community cohesion?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain. Thank you for that really very important question for us today. It is a question that we've discussed and debated here in this Chamber, when we came together and debated this issue, and we were able to report, as a Welsh Government, on how we were reaching out. And certainly, I as Minister for Social Justice, and the finance Minister, the education Minister, we are meeting with our communities who are most affected by the events in the middle east. Of course, we are meeting with our Muslim communities, meeting with our Jewish communities—meeting with them and also visiting their places of worship, and understanding what this has meant for them, but also recognising what it has meant for them in terms of the impact that it has on their lives and globally as well. Can I say, our community cohesion teams are crucially important to this, working with our interfaith council, who have been meeting, and also our faith communities forum?

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. It behoves us all to be more tolerant of those with different beliefs to us. At the same time, we should also be free to criticise religions. We have no blasphemy laws in this country, yet those who rightly call out bigoted Islamist views are condemned as Islamophobic. We only have to look at the Shawcross review of Prevent to see how efforts to avoid racism and Islamophobia have allowed a rise in non-violent Islamist extremists. We can be critical of these people and their views without being Islamophobic, just as we can criticise the state of Israel without being antisemitic.
Yet, in recent weeks it seems that intolerance has gained the upper hand, and the only winners are the extremists, both religious and from the far right. Hamas supporters speaking at Palestine solidarity campaign fundraisers about a genocide, or ultra-orthodox Jews calling for the expulsion of Arabs from the holy land do little to relieve tensions. Minister, what more can the Welsh Government do to ensure that Welsh communities do not give in to hate and division, and that we can call for peace, peacefully?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for that follow-up question. Let me make it very clear that the Welsh Government speaks out and stands out against Islamophobia and antisemitism. I think that it is really important that, in fact, in this Senedd, there was a really important event, when we were recognising the day of action against Islamophobia. I hope that that was very much recognised as a cross-party event as well.
As we meet with our Muslim colleagues and friends, particularly in the Muslim welfare council, to understand the impact that Islamophobia has on their lives, and equally understanding the impact of antisemitism—. I have to say, Altaf, that I hope that you would, with me, and certainly I know so many in this Chamber, condemn the Islamophobic language that has been spoken by some of the Conservative spokespeople now. Lee Anderson—no longer; suspended. But those words and those attacks on Sadiq Khan—I hope you will join me in condemning those as well.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. Sadly, many of the demonstrations have been far from peaceful. We just have to look at the treatment of Jo Stevens MP. She said at the weekend that, following the attack on her office, she has had to change her behaviour when she leaves her house. This follows the earlier, appalling treatment of our own colleague Natasha Asghar. This is totally unacceptable. Why should a Member of Parliament, any Parliament, be forced to change their behaviour as a result of violent protesters? I'm afraid that this could have a chilling effect on our democracy, if left to be unchecked. Minister, what discussions have you had with police forces in Wales about the actions they are taking to protect our democracy from violent extremists? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Clearly, we condemn all attacks on elected representatives, but also recognise, and I'm sure many of us across this Chamber particularly recognise, the position of Natasha Asghar, but other elected Members also facing that kind of abuse, and also, in many cases, and I think this is happened even for myself, when there's peaceful protest then that is part of democracy. I welcome that there will be peaceful protest where people have very strong views and feelings about situations that they're caught up in. We condemn attacks, and I particularly recognise the points that you've made about our elected representatives. But you'll be glad to hear that tomorrow we have a meeting, which I'm chairing, of the policing partnership board, and we are going to be discussing particularly the issue of parliamentary security, which we have discussed in this Chamber and outside the Chamber, and the parliamentary security ofour elected representatives. Now, there is work being done and funding being made available in terms of the parliamentary security of our MPs, but we are discussing this also in relation to our Senedd Members as well. That, of course, is part of the ways in which we work together with our policing colleagues to ensure that we promote community cohesion, but with the recognition of the importance of peaceful protest, which we stand up to support.
I know the coming weekend there's going to be a Stand Up To Racism rally, march and procession through Cardiff, the streets of our capital. I'm always very proud to join those events, because one of the most important chants that we make on those events is, 'Refugees are welcome here.' I think that's a really important point to make in terms of our nation of sanctuary.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The spin and the counter spin of the spring budget are filling the airwaves, but what is irrefutable is that financial hardship and higher levels of poverty have become the new normal in Wales. As the Bevan Foundation have noted in their latest snapshot of poverty report published today, more than one in eight people across Wales sometimes, often or always are struggling to afford the essentials. The deepening of financial hardship highlights that the support both the UK and Welsh Governments are providing isn't effective at keeping people from falling into and being trapped in poverty.
Plaid Cymru recognises the financial constraints on the Welsh Government due to the unfair funding settlement Wales receives from Westminster and the ruinous effect of the despicable policies of the UK Westminster Tories that care little about our people. But the report's findings show that there have been no major improvements in people's living standards across Wales since their last snapshot of poverty survey in July 2023. So, Minister, what evaluation has there been of Welsh Government anti-poverty measures during this Government term? What further measures are there in this year's budget to better support struggling households? With the social justice portfolio facing a 7.6 per cent reduction in funding, the largest cut of all Welsh Government spending areas, are you confident that Welsh Government can tackle poverty in Wales and support those during the cost-of-living crisis adequately and within your means?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams, for that very important question drawing attention to that snapshot of poverty in this winter of 2024 from the Bevan Foundation. I'm very pleased the Bevan Foundation is playing a key role in delivering our charter of benefits, because entitlement and income maximisation are key to tackling poverty, despite the fact this was such a difficult budget with £1.2 billion taken out of our budget by the UK Government. Thirteen years of austerity were imposed on us by the UK Government—a choice of that Conservative Government, it was not necessary, and we're still living with that. I think the snapshot shows so clearly what that has meant to people's lives in Wales.
But it was very important that we did protect in the budget our discretionary assistance fund, which is worth £38.5 million a year, because that is money that's emergency money in many respects for people in terms of the emergency payments, but also those important goods that people need to access, particularly those who are under particular pressure. Now, I'm also very clear that we have to do everything we can to tackle fuel poverty and food poverty as well. On food poverty, supporting our community food organisations across all our constituencies to tackle food poverty, I’m very glad that as a result of the budget, we're going to be able to protect our food partnerships, the co-ordinators that are working across Wales to provide services to individuals and households. And also there's our partnership with the Fuel Bank Foundation, getting vouchers for people’s prepayment meters. But there's also the heat fund for people off-grid, and you will note yesterday, or Monday, I was able to issue a statement about funding that’s gone to local authorities to help particularly Gypsy, Roma, Traveller people in permanent sites, but also the heat fund for those who are off-grid on those sites to access funding. So, it is across the board that we need to assist and support people in these difficult times.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Weinidog. There is a lot of good work being done in partnership, but the dial isn’t shifting, clearly, is it? We know that’s partly due to our relationship with Westminster, as you’ve highlighted, but we also need to evaluate better, I think, the measures that we are taking. We’ve seen a recent evaluation being published in Scotland, for example, showing the differences that they are making with the policies they have to combat poverty. And it’s children, of course, that are most damaged by poverty, and the heartbreaking and unacceptable effect of poverty on our children is highlighted in new research by the Bevan Foundation on child poverty recently published this week. Half of Welsh children are worried about whether their family had enough money to pay the bills—half of Welsh children; 23 per cent saying they’re recently worried about being cold; 21 per cent saying their mental health has been negatively affected; 10 per cent saying their physical health is being affected by their family’s financial position. More than one in five parents and guardians of children under 18 reported their child had been unable to get the birthday party they wanted due to their family’s financial position. It’s just heartbreaking, isn’t it? And in their recent report, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health have highlighted that in Wales paediatric waiting lists have soared by a staggering 62 per cent since 2016, and poverty, of course, massively impacts child health. So, what work is the Government doing cross-Cabinet in order to address the health inequalities that are obviously impacting children in poverty the most?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Sioned Williams, for that really important question, and it is a cross-Government responsibility that we take to tackle poverty, particularly child poverty, as clearly laid out in our child poverty strategy. And, of course, that strategy, which I launched only a few weeks ago, has cross-Government support, and we're also engaging, of course, with the End Child Poverty network to give us that evidence, including and alongside the Bevan Foundation, as well as what we need to do to tackle child poverty at the sharp end.
Now, we’ve talked about ways in which we can get incomes to families, because, of course, it is money that’s needed in people’s pockets, and I think there's the example of the Healthy Start vouchers, and the fact that the Deputy Minister has been able to have mandatory training for health visitors to ensure that we get now over a 77 per cent uptake of Healthy Start vouchers. This is about actually, again, getting the right food and support to children at the earlier stages. But I do think also there's the roll-out of the Flying Start programme, which, with the co-operation of Plaid Cymru, reaches our most disadvantaged children and families at such an early stage in their lives, and, of course, the roll-out of free school meals, which of course was a key plank of our co-operation agreement and, indeed, of the budget. So, I think we are doing together—. Many of the aspects of the co-operation agreement are helping us to drive this forward, to reach out to those who are most vulnerable.
But can I say also—? I mean, I’m not up on the news yet, but the thought that there could be more cuts to our public services as a result of the spring budget today fills us with horror in the Welsh Government, and I’m sure it does across this part of the Chamber as well, because we need to have more funding for our public services in order to tackle child poverty.

The Cost-of-living Crisis

John Griffiths AC: 3. How is Welsh Government supporting the voluntary sector and community groups during the cost-of-living crisis? OQ60787

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, John Griffiths. Our third sector support Wales grant provides core funding to the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and county voluntary councils across Wales to provide a support infrastructure for community groups. For 2023-24, I've provided an additional £1.5 million to this support infrastructure, an increase of 20 per cent on the previous year.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for that, Minister. I recently visited the Eton Road community centre in Maindee in my constituency. They have done so much good work over so many years and continue to run many advice sessions and a host of different activities, Minister, as I'm sure you're aware.
Amongst those activities is a youth project, which involves over 100 children and five sessions a week. It's mainly children from the black and minority ethnic communities who attend, most of whom are not in full-time education. Amongst the facilities for them there is a music studio that many of them have used to learn to play instruments and to mix their own music. It's just one example of so much good work going on in that Eton Road community centre, all within an old and large building, Minister. And one of the issues is the maintenance cost of that building. And I just wonder if there's anything you could say in terms of the available support for these community organisations, particularly in terms of maintenance costs when buildings are not new and quite large.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, John, for that question. I was very pleased to visit Community House last year and indeed, last year, a choir came from Community House to an interfaith council event—a fantastic choir, a multicultural choir. There are so many things going on at Community House, as a multicultural, multi-faith community centre, as you've said.
I understand, and I recall from my visit, that it was a church. It's owned by the Presbyterian Church of Wales, and the charity is using that building. I hope that we can advise them to access the community facilities programme. They can get help, of course, from the Gwent Association of Voluntary Organisations, GAVO, because I can see that they need to, hopefully, have access to ensure that the building can be—. There could be improvements made, and perhaps, in terms of maintenance, cost-saving and energy-saving investments. So, there are grants of up to £300,000 to help local voluntary sector organisations to improve, and indeed also to purchase assets.
But can I just congratulate Community House on its youth project, its music studio? This is all about intervention and prevention, empowering and inspiring our young people, particularly those who are more disadvantaged, and the fact that the community there is supporting black, Asian and minority-ethnic young people is such a strong indication of support in your constituency for that project.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, the voluntary and charity sectors in Wales consist of so many fantastic individuals, willing to give so much in order to help others. One charity in particular, Minister, which I know that I've raised in this Chamber before—and I don't think that anyone is going to get tired of me saying this—is Sparkle, a charity that provides invaluable support to hundreds of Gwent children and young people, as well as their families, who have complex needs. The charity, Minister, needs at least £750,000 per year to support 935 children. As I'm sure you can imagine, it is a huge amount of fundraising that is required to make this happen, but, inevitably, the pandemic and the cost of living have put the brakes on fundraising abilities. Yet the number of children and families they see year on year is still on the rise.
In addition, Minister, other organisations, like Sparkle, already receive funding from your Government, including Action for Children, who receive 45 per cent of their funding from this very Welsh Government. So, Minister, I know and understand that funding is tight, but I wondered what funding and support could be available to help this fantastic organisation to thrive, as it is without a doubt a lifeline to so many children and families across Wales.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, once again, for drawing attention, Natasha Asghar, to Sparkle, to that all-important voluntary organisation supporting so many children across Gwent. I'm sure that I've drawn attention, as I've just done in response to John Griffiths, to GAVO, the Gwent Association of Voluntary Organisations. And just to say that we do provide £8.48 million to third sector support Wales, and £734,000 plus is going to GAVO to support the voluntary sector in the community. I've mentioned the community facilities grant, which is more for capital funding, and I know that they have sites that they use and venues. But I do encourage Sparkle to contact GAVO to get the latest in terms of access to a variety of funding sources. But, of course, my budget has been very much constrained this year in terms of support for the voluntary sector. But it is I think also important for the record as well for Members to recall that also we have a community asset loan fund, administered by the WCVA, offering loans up to £250,000, over a maximum term of 25 years, to third sector organisations who are seeking to take ownership of community assets, land or buildings. So, again, there are a variety of options that Sparkle could take, I think, to access further support.

Energy Price Cap

Carolyn Thomas AS: 4. What is the Welsh Government’s assessment of the impact the new energy price cap will have on fuel poverty in Wales? OQ60769

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for your question, Carolyn Thomas. Despite the decrease in the price cap, energy costs remain almost double the pre-energy crisis levels, and are predicted to remain high for the foreseeable future. The energy market needs a complete overhaul, so that customers are treated fairly, no matter where they live, and investment is made into local communities.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister, and for everything that you have been doing to tackle fuel poverty across Wales—it's much appreciated. Although the overall energy price cap has fallen, it's a total disgrace that the standing charges, which hit those in fuel poverty the most, have been allowed to increase. Standing charges also disproportionately impact my residents in north Wales, who are subject to the highest standing charges in the UK, and will be paying over £95 more than those in London. Minister, may I ask what plans you have to make representations to the UK Westminster Government regarding the significant injustice that's happening?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for drawing attention to this injustice, particularly for your constituents in north Wales. There are two issues with standing charges: the postcode lottery around the amounts charged, and the fact that costs are applied even when people have used very little or no electricity. So, we have regularly called for urgent reform of standing charges with UK Ministers. There is an Ofgem consultation. I've had meetings in person, and also with the UK Minister for Energy Consumers and Affordability, and also with the new Ofgem chair. But it is north Wales households who are very hard done by, also because they live so close to sources of affordable, renewable electricity, which is exported from north Wales through the national grid, yet they face the highest standing charges. I will publish—I have published—our response to the Ofgem call for input on standing charges. We need a solution that is fair to low-income and low-usage households and that doesn't continue to disadvantage households in north Wales.

Delyth Jewell AC: Our energy market has failed. It's failed consumers, who have to pay extortionate prices for the basic necessity of staying warm enough to live. And that failure has been the inevitable consequence of privatisation. Bills go up because this false margin of profit has to be generated to pay off shareholders, to keep executives' pay high, no matter the cost to those who can't afford to keep the heating and lights on. Now, Ofgem's new price cap will provide scarce comfort for those families. It'll do little to help households who still have prepayment meters being installed forcibly in their homes, a third of whom have been forced into self-disconnecting this past year. And let's not use nice language to hide the truth here—self-disconnecting isn't a choice, it is enforced privation, it is state-sanctioned destitution. Do you agree with me, Minister, that no new price cap can make right this moral wrong, and that the scourge of fuel poverty will continue to blight our society until this failed market is fundamentally changed, renationalisedand brought again into our hands?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, as I said in response, Delyth Jewell, to Carolyn Thomas's question, the energy market needs a complete overhaul. The energy costs, as you said, are almost double the pre-energy crisis levels. So, clearly, major reform is needed. Just in terms of looking at issues around standing charges, for example, we feel that we need a holistic review of retail charges, including the abolition of standing charges, the introduction of a social tariff. We've all been calling for a social tariff, and no progress, despite the fact that a former Chancellor actually said they would look at a social tariff and/or a medical tariff, and the rebalancing of gas and electricity costs.
This is about the UK Government and Ofgem taking responsibility, particularly looking at the review of electricity market arrangements—that will have an impact on customers as well, geographical impacts under certain scenarios as well. But, as you say, the self-disconnection, and, now, when there is also this challenge of the fact that Ofgem is allowing some more energy suppliers to have forced installation of prepayment meters, which, of course, is another injustice.

People with Visual Impairments

Adam Price AC: 5. What work has the Welsh Government's disability rights taskforce and disability equality forum done on ensuring that people with visual impairments can access paid or voluntary work or work experience? OQ60775

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Adam Price. Welsh Government is committed to ensuring all visually impaired people have equitable access to employment and voluntary work. Welsh Government's disabled people's employment champions are breaking down the barriers to employment for all disabled people, and our disability rights taskforce has produced recommendations to make work an equitable experience for all.

Adam Price AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. You'll be aware from previous correspondence between us that I've spoken to young people in my constituency with visual impairments about their life experiences, and access to work was a very strong theme. And from the experiences they shared, there was a consistent theme of things falling between the cracks in terms of ensuring the best access to work possible, and there were some particular systemic tensions identified that made their lives more difficult, things like, for example, being able to receive assistive technology support for paid work through the Access to Work scheme, but not for unpaid work experience or voluntary work. There were also issues that were thrown up in terms of the effects of receiving certain benefits. And it all seems like an incredibly difficult and exhausting system for people to navigate. So, would the Welsh Government be willing to work with relevant stakeholders, and especially people with visual impairments, to look into creating an assistive technology passport for those with visual impairments, as a way to ensure that that assistive technology moves with a person and remains in their ownership and therefore improves their ability to search for and access work?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, diolch yn fawr, Adam Price, for that question. And it is important that the disability rights taskforce has got a work stream on children and young people. Of course, there is also a work stream on employment and income, but a focus on children and young people means that we are engaging with children and young people to look at their experiences and to understand what we can do to tackle those issues. And the young people that you have engaged with and drawn to my attention are important. They are going to guide us, I hope, in terms of getting the policy solutions that you identified. And, if they fall between the cracks, we have to recognise that this is again the jagged edge of devolved and non-devolved responsibilities in terms of access to assistive technology. But I certainly will follow up those issues and that evidence that's come from the children and young people with visual impairments that you're engaging with, but also will feed this directly back to the disability rights taskforce's children and young people's work stream, who are actually working with schools, and with children in Wales, to ensure that they're participating fully in the work.

Child Poverty

Jane Dodds AS: 6. What assessment has the Minister made of the role of high-quality accessible childcare in tackling child poverty? OQ60785

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Evidence suggests that quality childcare provision supports child development, particularly for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. And that's why we are expanding childcare services to all two-year-olds via the quality provision, a feature of our flagship early years programme, Flying Start, as part of our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for that response.

Jane Dodds AS: Public Health Wales issued a report underscoring the profound impact of poverty on infants, children and young people. Within the report, they emphasised how early childhood education and care holds the promise of a triple dividend: fostering positive child development; empowering women and parents; and driving economic growth. In particular, the report highlights the example of Slovenia, a leading nation in reducing child poverty. They focus on harmonised childcare, aiding families as a whole rather than children alone. That has proven effective in preventing the intergenerational transmission of poverty. Gaps in our childcare system here in Wales actually lack that harmonisation. There are gaps in our provision and a pressing need to enhance the integration of childcare programmes with each other and with other essential services as well. As a stakeholder articulated in the Bevan Foundation report, which Sioned referred to, actually, what happens here is the child is following the funding, not the funding following the child. So, could I ask you what consideration have you given to developing a fully integrated childcare system that brings together all three Welsh childcare schemes? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, and I'm really pleased that the Deputy Minister for Social Services is here in the Chamber, as well as the designated Member Siân Gwenllian, because I know this is precisely and particularly what they're working on, to ensure that there is that integration. So, for many of us who've been working and campaigning, and then administering and hopefully driving forward change in terms of that integration and that family approach in terms of the importance of early years childcare, we recognise the findings of that report, recognise we can learn from other countries.
But I do think it's important to see that the flagship early years programme, Flying Start, which I've already mentioned today, is making a real difference to the lives of children and their families in some of our most disadvantaged communities, and it is helping parents in terms of balancing work. I think the fact that the childcare offer now is extended to those in training and education is evidence of the steps we want to take to make that integration. From an independent evaluation, Flying Start is making a real difference to the lives of children in some of the most disadvantaged communities and having a positive impact on families' lives. I think this is important, it says in the evaluation that it's been life changing for some high-need families, and that outcomes for families living in Flying Start areas may now be on a par with outcomes for families in less disadvantaged areas. The programme is making a difference to the lives of Flying Start families.

Hate Speech and Radicalisation

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 7. How does the Welsh Government support efforts to tackle hate speech and radicalisation in Wales? OQ60762

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Welsh Government works in partnership with criminal justice partners to tackle hate speech and radicalisation. This work is overseen by our hate and community tension Board. We are currently supporting the Office of Communications to develop clear and consistent standards for social media platforms to safeguard people from online harms.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, and I welcome that answer. The way in which we carry out political and public discourse really matters. Words matter, and inflammatory language can heighten tensions and sometimes even lead to fatal conclusions. Women politicians can often face the most brutal onslaught, often from keyboard warriors and others, for daring to do the very job that they were elected to do.
This Friday marks International Women's Day, with the theme this year being to inspire inclusion. It is a chance to champion progress and to set out our ambition to go further. We have worked hard here in Wales to create a more inclusive Parliament, with a record of representation we can be proud of and the potential to build on this, actually, with Senedd reform. There are currently more women than men in Welsh Government. Yet, too often, on too many occasions, women politicians are subject to appalling misogyny and abuse simply for being in the public eye. This is completely unacceptable. We all have a responsibility to call it out.
So, Deputy Minister, what is the Welsh Government doing to tackle misogyny and hate speech that targets women? And importantly, what can we all do, all of us, to challenge and to change such abuse of women and to inspire real inclusion?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that powerful question on a really important issue that I think impacts on all of us in this place? You started by saying 'words matter', and I think we've often said that in debates here, that what we say here has an impact outside of this Chamber and can impact on a person's own personal well-being, but it also impacts and encourages certain actions elsewhere as well. And we're using all the levers we have as a Government. This morning, I actually met with the Wales Hate Support Centre about the work that they're doing in terms of being active bystanders and working with those online platforms to see how to better challenge and mitigate some of the abuse and some of the behaviours on there. And one thing they say is it starts with being an active bystander, as you said too, and it starts with us and what we do and what we say.
I've spoken in the Siambr before, as have colleagues, to say there's a difference between scrutiny and challenge and disagreeing and debate, but then there's a balance that flips, when the benign goes to something slightly more sinister. And I've spoken here about how I've had abuse on the back of simply not just being myself, being an out Member of the Senedd, but actually for doing my job too, around the 'LGBTQ+ Action Plan for Wales'. We had a debate, I think, when Adam Price, Jeremy Miles and I were first elected to mark LGBT History Month, as the first out Members of this place, and I remember some of the comments online. Somebody said, 'Oh, who cares who she sleeps with?', and things like that. Well, actually, my wife does, but that's not the point. [Laughter.]
But, in all seriousness, when we launched the LGBTQ+ action plan, that triggered a whole heap of not just online abuse on social media, but actually something that was referred to the police in the end as a hate crime. And this person had not just e-mailed me, telling me that I needed to go for conversion therapy, but also my wife, other colleagues, and I actually found out later on that they'd contacted my dad as well.
I've seen it more recently too, on the back of an intervention around—I think I spoke to Sioned earlier about it—the problem with the fire service being that we let women join, that it's wokeness taking over the world. There was even some correspondence to a male colleague of mine from a representative of an organisation that I won't name because that wouldn't be fair in this place, effectively telling them to keep the pressure up on me and effectively saying to put me in my place. So, I think we need to say today that I don't think it's the sisters that need sorting, it's society and the system. And it goes back to how you started, Huw, that what we say matters and we all have a responsibility to call that out and do something.
Dirprwy Lywydd, if you'll indulge me, I want to pivot to the positive, because it is International Women's Day on Friday, and it is about inspiring inclusion, and actually what you say, that in this place we do aspire to be inclusive and we can build on that through Senedd reform. And one of the things I would say is that we do talk about the negative and the abuse that we face, but actually it's still a huge privilege to be here, and I think other women, young women out there should aspire to be part of this Senedd too.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally question 8, Jack Sargeant.

Prepayment Meters

Jack Sargeant AC: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of energy suppliers again force-fitting prepayment meters on fuel poverty in Wales? OQ60765

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jack Sargeant, for that question. I welcome your Petitions Committee—the Petitions Committee that you chair—your recent report on the forced installation of prepayment meters, and I share your concerns. I welcome the steps Ofgem has taken to make charges fairer for prepayment customers and their rules for energy companies, but the risk of self-disconnection and damage to the mental well-being of low-income households remains.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Minister for that answer this afternoon, and also your long-standing commitment, Minister, to supporting vulnerable residents who have been badly treated by energy suppliers for a number of years. Presiding Officer, I've stated a number of times in this Chamber my concerns about the new code Ofgem have introduced, and despite the spin by Ofgem and the stories running that these new rules are strict new rules, the reality is that there is nothing strict or tough about them. The disability charity, Scope, have recently said that there are serious gaps in the new code, meaning that vulnerable people could still be forced onto prepayment meters.
Minister, I'm grateful to you for mentioning the Petitions Committee report in your earlier response. We made a series of recommendations to Welsh Government and to Ofgem. I'm grateful that the Welsh Government accepted all of them, and one in principle, from the committee report, however, Ofgem, many months later, have now missed their own extended deadline to provide a response to the committee. Will you use your office in Welsh Government to raise this matter directly with Ofgem? And do you agree with me, Minister, that this is no way to treat a parliamentary inquiry? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: This is no way to treat a parliamentary inquiry, and it's unacceptable that Ofgem has failed to provide that prompt response to the committee, which we have pressed for again today. Because we need confidence that Ofgem is actually treating the Senedd with equal respect to Westminster.
I did meet the new Ofgem chair on 19 December in Cardiff, in their office. I met him and particularly raised the issues that, of course, are the subject of your report, in terms of how we were going to monitor the situation closely, to ensure that the rules surrounding the fact that energy suppliers can recommence forced installation of prepayment meters are actually being monitored carefully and that eligible households are protected. Now, the fact that we have a Petitions Committee, the fact we have your leadership, Jack Sargeant, on this issue, and we've had that report, I mean, Ofgem should be paying more attention to what we're doing here in Wales.
And can I just say one quick thing, Deputy Llywydd? I recently met the Enforcement Conduct Board, and I know colleagues in the Chamber will be aware that because of their engagement with Wales, all—. For example, all local authorities now have to use accredited debt collectors. I heard this on some programme, just, you know, one day, driving through my constituency, where they were saying that every local authority—it's a bit like our charter—have signed up to the Enforcement Conduct Board. That's not happening anywhere else. Also, I'm going to take the Enforcement Conduct Board to a meeting with energy suppliers soon, because I think they should only be using accredited debt collectors. Dŵr Cymru is already using accredited debt collectors. So, we've managed to have that kind of power and influence, thanks to Jack Sargeant and his committee. But it is important, we recognise, that energy suppliers are—. We're disappointed that they can now go back to the forced installation of prepayment meters. We've called for a ban on involuntary installation as we know that has revealed the impact it has on the most vulnerable people's lives.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next set of questions will be to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution. The first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Pensions Loss

Delyth Jewell AC: 1. What recent discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers about women born in the 1950s who have suffered pensions loss through the targeting of their pension rights? OQ60779

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question, and perhaps it's right at the beginning of the question to acknowledge that there are about 30 Women Against State Pension Inequality campaigners in the gallery who are, I'm sure, very welcome here and have made a determined campaign over the years.
The Welsh Government has written to the UK Government on numerous occasions to express concerns about the women born in the 1950s who had their state pension age raised without effective notification by the Pensions Acts of 1995 and 2011. We will continue to monitor developments and continue to make appropriate representations.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thankyou for that.

Delyth Jewell AC: The 1950s-born women denied their state pensions still await justice. I suggested to you last year that WASPI also stands for 'Waiting and Still Pleading for Integrity'. They should not still be waiting. It's a scandal that the UK Government has dragged its feet for so long that women have died before getting the money they're owed, and they are due financial redress. I hope, I trust that the ombudsman will recommend awarding payments of the highest level possible, but Westminster has the final say, so I'd urge you please to maintain pressure at this critical time. Any proposal to pay these women off with a sum that's less than what they're owed would go against the Equality Act 2010 and would flout international law, including the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.
So, what recent discussions have you had, please, and will you have, to demand that this wrongdoing be made right and to correct the imbalance that allowed nearly 10 million men to claim free national insurance contributions from the 1980s right up until 2018, whilst 1950s-born women were stopped from claiming anything? It is direct discrimination, and in the week of International Women's Day, these women deserve certainty and to be given hope that they will finally see justice.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I commend the Member for consistently raising this point in this Chamber? As the Member knows, not so long ago, I wrote to the ombudsman specifically raising those particular points, but raising the importance of this matter being expedited. We've had a response, and, of course, the issue is still being considered by the ombudsman. We'll continue to monitor what is happening and continue to make, where appropriate, representations.
In respect of the issue of the compensation that I think we all feel is due and would be just, there should be two things. Firstly, all the women who've been affected should be compensated for the specific economic loss that they have suffered. They should also be compensated for the impact this has had on their lives. I doubt very much whether there is anyone in this Chamber who doesn't know someone who has been affected by this and who isn't concerned about it, so extensive has been the impact.
Can I just say one other thing as well? I think it’s also important that there are posthumous payments that are made, because so many people have passed away before seeing any form of justice or rectification for what has happened. It is important that that is recognised and that the estates of those people and their families also see that that justice is delivered for those who are no longer here to receive that.

Senedd Reform

Gareth Davies AS: 2. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the impact of Senedd reform on people in Denbighshire? OQ60792

Mick Antoniw AC: The Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill will give effect to a proportional list system, enabling the votes cast by people in Denbighshire, and the rest of Wales, to be more accurately reflected in the Members of the Senedd that represent that area.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much, Counsel General. This week, the Bishop of St Asaph made the rare decision to voice his grave concerns regarding this Senedd reform and the consequences for Welsh democracy by adopting a closed list system. Bishop Gregory Cameron has described the closed list proposals as
'a huge shift of power away from the people and towards the politicians'.
Let me remind the Counsel General that most nations internationally that use a closed list system are unfree, autocratic regimes. The adoption of a closed list electoral system where one has no power to elect or remove specific candidates will undoubtedly set Wales back.
The academic evidence, incidentally, is also on our side, with Professor Laura McAllister calling the closed list system a major weakness. With trust in public institutions in north Wales being at record lows, this will not help. The latest Welsh Government budget has announced real-terms cuts to every area other than health and social services, which in north Wales is trailing behind the rest of the nation and particularly the rest of the UK. This inevitably makes people question the importance of spending £120 million on more politicians when they live in the area with an NHS health board where only 88.6 per cent of A&E patients are seen within—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Gareth, can you get to the question, please?

Gareth Davies AS: Yes, sure. Could the Counsel General please outline what assessments have been made regarding the appetite for Senedd expansion in north Wales, specifically in Denbighshire, and could the Counsel General outline how Senedd reform will affect Denbighshire with regard to representation? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: The proposals that we've brought forward are an investment in democracy. I note that the Member had no concern whatsoever about spending £120 million to introduce ID cards, the purpose of which is to actually stop people participating in democracy. But in terms of the detail of the Government's position, I refer the Member to the transcript of the proceedings yesterday, where this was fully debated and which the Member will be aware of.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Questions now from the party spokespeople. First of all, we have the Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Last month, you and the social justice Minister released jointly the 'Delivering Justice for Wales' 2024 progress report, with a regrettably partisan ministerial foreword. The report goes on to state that
'Our mission to provide social justice in Wales requires a focus on preventative action to address the root causes of pressures on the justice system.'
It then cobbles together a list of disconnected Welsh Government policies claimed to prevent pressure on the justice system in Wales. What it fails to mention is actions taken by this Welsh Government that will have a direct negative impact on the justice system in Wales, such as withdrawing funding for the Wales schools police programme, SchoolBeat, a collaboration with the four police forces in Wales for ages five to 16. It also responds to reports of incidents in schools and supports and advises schools in a safeguarding capacity—basically early intervention and prevention.
However, the Welsh Government is withdrawing its match funding for this programme, thereby removing a key early intervention and prevention programme and stoking up costs for statutory services, including those the Welsh Government is responsible for, therefore directly contradicting the mission claimed by the Welsh Government in its 'Delivering Justice for Wales' progress report. How, therefore, do you justify cutting a programme that is designed to prevent rather than cure and to deliver a saving to the public purse?

Mick Antoniw AC: Of course, in the past decade, legal services and the justice system have been absolutely decimated by this Conservative Government. Legal aid and access to legal advice has been all but destroyed for a majority of people who are desperately in need of that sort of advice. We have, therefore, for example, had to concentrate funding on our single advice fund in order to try and make some recompense for the damage that has been done. We've seen also the implications of UK Government policy throughout the justice system, which has led to an increase in the prison population from 45,000 to almost 90,000, and the only solution coming from the UK Government is to invest a further £400 million in trying to create additional places within the prison system.
In terms of the youth justice system, 90 per cent of the youth justice system is actually funded by the Welsh Government. That is why there is such a logic to youth justice and early intervention being devolved to the Welsh Government. What the 'Delivering Justice' paper does is highlight a number of areas. Firstly, it highlights all those areas where we are spending money, often money in respect of non-devolved functions, to enable the justice system to operate and integrate with our devolved functions and with the justice system. We have many of those programmes, which are funded. But we do have to prioritise which ones we do the most, in view of the impact that the UK austerity policies have had on our budget, and the loss of somewhere in the region of £1.2 billion. We are nevertheless funding parts of the justice system that are not devolved to us, but we are doing that because it enables the devolved functions we have to work better, and it enables the justice system to operate better.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. You appear to be answering questions I've asked previously, but not the actual question I asked today, which is entirely about a matter funded by the Welsh Government in partnership with the four police forces, a matter that was focused on a measure the Welsh Government can take on early intervention and prevention, which would also save money, but you've taken the decision to go otherwise.
Moving on, calling for the devolution of policing to Wales, both you and the First Minister have referred to the devolution of policing to Manchester as a model for Wales. But those are only the powers of police and crime commissioners, and we already have devolution of them to Wales. For clarity, what are you therefore proposing—retention of the current regional police and crime commissioner model, centralisation of the powers of a police and crime commissioner in a national person orbody, or recentralisation of powers, in this case in a Welsh Government department?
Further, are you proposing that this should apply to a single Welsh police force against the detailed recommendations of the committee of Assembly Members, as we were, including myself, appointed to consider this during a previous Senedd term, when the then Labour Home Secretary accepted and implemented our recommendations?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The issue of policing and devolution of policing is, of course, Welsh Government policy, but it is also something that is fully supported by all four elected police and crime commissioners. So, this isn't just something that emerges from the Welsh Government or from this Senedd—it is something that has much, much broader support. What I can tell the Member is that, in accordance with the statement myself and the Minister for Social Justice issued some while back, we have commissioned some expert evidence and reporting on this. A detailed report will look at the issues around the devolution of policing, how it might work, what the benefits of it are, what the challenges from it are, and it would be hoped, in the imminent future, that that will be published.

Mark Isherwood AC: Of course, the four police and crime commissioners are politicians—two from your party and two from Plaid Cymru—so it's not surprising they support your direction of travel at the moment. Previous police and crime commissioners have not been so united on that subject. But, regrettably, again—[Interruption.] It's absolutely factual. I actually met and spoke with many of them over the years, and they looked at the real evidence rather than the policy-led evidence that's driving—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mark, ask your question, rather than responding to interventions.

Mark Isherwood AC: The final question is again referring to the progress report. It said that the Thomas commission concluded in 2019 that the design and delivery of justice policy should be devolved to Wales, and refers to the appointment of Carl Foulkes, former chief constable of north Wales, to lead on work that will be used to
'inform a long-term vision for what a devolved policing service in Wales could look like'.
However, the Welsh Government and you are yet to explain why the Thomas commission report only makes one reference to cross-border criminality, despite the evidence of the north-west regional organised crime unit, which includes north Wales, to the Thomas commission being largely ignored in the commission's report. Unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland, Wales has a heavily populated cross-border area with an estimated 90 per cent or more of crime in north Wales operating east-west, and almost none on an all-Wales basis. Why, therefore, is the Welsh Government devoting so much time and resource to the devolution of policing to Wales when it is cutting key budgets elsewhere, including the one I referred to earlier, especially when both the UK Conservative Government and the most senior Welsh Labour MP in Westminster, shadow Welsh secretary, Jo Stevens, have rejected fresh calls for the Welsh Government to be given control of policing and adult criminal justice?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. There is a tide for reform and there's also considerable merit for reform. Of course, policing is part of the justice system, and parts of policing are integral, whether it be community safety, whether it be anti-social behaviour, whether it be a whole variety of issues that engage with devolved functions. The Thomas commission covered a wide range of areas, but it didn't cover every area. You've mentioned already Carl Foulkes;Carl Foulkes is the officer who's been commissioned to produce the work to look into the issue of the devolution of policing that I referred to earlier, so you'll be able to see the outcome of that work, I would hope, within a matter of weeks.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Counsel General, you and I a few weeks ago were present in the Senedd when Yvonne Murphy of Democracy Box and her amazing young co-creators presented their final report 'Beyond the Ballot Box' with their recommendations for transforming our democracy here in Wales. One of the main themes was the need to provide basic democratic information to all of our citizens both online and offline. The voter information platform that you're suggesting through the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill is a small but important step in the right direction, but given one of the themes of the report was the need to do this consistently, not just at election time, would you work with me and with others on a cross-party basis and with Democracy Box to see how we can turn that voter information platform and expand it to be the kind of holistic idea that Democracy Box were presenting?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank you for the question? I attended the event that they held in the Senedd and I can't but say how impressed I was with that grouping of young people whose main concern was how they engage with other young people and put over the importance of people participating within our democratic structures and also understanding it. Of course, one of the issues the recent independent commission on the future of Wales referred to was the challenge to democracy, and out of that emerged the issue of civic education. Civic education and political education with a small 'p' is something that we've discussed in this Chamber on quite a number of occasions. This is, in fact, the publication they have, and it's a very impressive publication, because it is young people talking to other young people and it is a programme that can be implemented in schools.
I can't say how much importance I actually attach to the sustainability of our democratic systems without what is, I think, a very successful and important civic education programme as part of our education system. Young people, I think, from an early age, need to understand not only what civic responsibilities are, but how the system, when they become adults and go out into the world, actually works, how they participate in it and how they make their voice felt. What was important, I think, with The Democracy Box work is that it is young people saying, 'This is what we need to know. This is how we need to do it. This is how we need to communicate and how we actually want our politicians to support us in that particular work.' So, I'm very keen to see the development of this particular work. I know that the education Minister is equally so, and we're also looking very much at how the curriculum may be developed to actually facilitate that and to encourage that.

Adam Price AC: Many of the ideas in the report are things that we as a Senedd could decide to do, for example, the creation of a nationwide physical network of democracy hubs, building on the very successful Talking Shop template. We could, as the report suggests, decide to adapt our processes here, the ways that committees work, the way that our legislation works, to involve civic participation in a myriad of different ways. And, as you suggest, Counsel General, these ideas are very much consistent with recommendation 1, aren't they, of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales—their stress on democratic innovation, on inclusive community engagement and civic education, as you point out. So, given that we, yesterday, voted £1 million for continuation of the work of the constitutional commission and its ideas, will you convene a meeting, Counsel General, cross-party, involving the young people from The Democracy Box, and also the trinity of commissions—Senedd, electoral, and local democracy and boundary—so we can see how, working together, we can implement some of the vision and the fantastic energy that was contained in this report?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for that further question. I think the theme of democratic health, democratic well-being, is a theme that emerges increasingly across portfolios. What I was quite impressed with actually in this booklet from The Democracy Box is that they say:
'Democracy is about more than simply voting and elections. It is about having your say every day and not just on election days.'
So, on the point you raise about democracy hubs and how that might work, from the Government side, as to where the portfolio and the responsibility for this lies, or across which portfolios it lies, I think there is a common recognition that the issue of democratic engagement and, again, as identified by the independent commission, is increasingly important. It is something that has to be addressed. In some of the things we're doing, we'll work towards that—for example, automatic registration from 16 plus, where were we will probably have, in Wales, the most extensive franchise we have ever had. But that means nothing if people don't have the confidence to actually participate within that, and that process, I think, starts earlier. So, certainly, I give my personal support, and I'm sure, across Government, there is support for looking at and exploring what needs to be done to actually achieve some of those objectives, some of which are actually outlined in The Democracy Box papers.

The Building Safety Act 2022

Rhys ab Owen AS: 3. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Minister for Climate Change in relation to enacting sections 116 to 125 of the Building Safety Act 2022, in light of the ruling in Triathlon Homes v Stratford Village Development Partnership and others? OQ60788

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for the question. In Wales, the context is different to England. We have announced there is a route to remediation for all buildings of 11m or over in height. This commitment extends to both cladding and non-cladding-related fire safety issues, and is for all leaseholders.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. As you know, leaseholders in Wales feel that they are currently on a jagged edge. Whilst leaseholders in England are able to bring action to force developers to pay their fair share of the costs of remediation, those here in Wales are having to navigate layers of bureaucracy in order to get similar results. Constituents engaging with the leaseholder support scheme have complained of a lack of timescale, communication issues and lack of accountability. The Prif Weinidog has said previously that these sections are not necessary because the Welsh Government is responsible for legally challenging developers, but would it not be simpler and more efficient for the leaseholders themselves to hold and exercise those powers? Will the Welsh Government listen to the leasehold campaigners and enact these sections to give them the right to seek remediation contribution orders? Diolch.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question, and it is an important question. Part of it probably ought to be addressed to the Minister for Climate Change, within whose portfolio this lies. But in terms of the legal aspects to it, one thing to say is that we have announced that there is a route to remediation for all buildings over 11m in height. This commitment extends to both cladding and non-cladding-related fire safety issues, and it's for all leaseholders. So, we simply do not need the same legislation in Wales, where the context is different to that of England, and where all leaseholders in buildings of 11m and over have a route to get their buildings made as fire safe as possible.
Now, to my knowledge, the recent tribunal case in England is just the second contribution order for funding to address fire safety issues to date. However, given that all buildings of 11m and over have a route to remediation in Wales for fire safety issues, which extends to both external and internal fire safety, leaseholders and others in Wales do not have to go down the route of a tribunal to be able to have their building made as safe from fire risk as it can be.We have been clear that we do not wish to only limit liability for leaseholders, and that we have been firm that the leaseholder should not pay for works to rectify safety issues that are not of their making. I think we've also chosen not to exclude leaseholders by adopting the concept of qualifying and non-qualifying leaseholders, so we invite expressions of interest from responsible persons so that we can support all leaseholders who find themselves in a building impacted by fire safety.
Eleven major UK developers with buildings in Wales have signed the Welsh Government's contract, which commits them to remediating fire safety defects in buildings they've developed over the last 30 years. To support this, officials are procuring legal advisers to support leaseholders where a dispute arises on circumstances that are not covered in the Welsh Government contract.

Reform of Devolved Tribunals

Rhys ab Owen AS: 4. What progress has been made on the reform of devolved tribunals? OQ60789

Mick Antoniw AC: Our White Paper consultation on reform of the devolved tribunals closed in October 2023 and the summary of responses was published in January. I am grateful to those who responded and whose contribution is shaping the policy for legislative proposals. We continue to engage with stakeholders as work progresses.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. One argument in favour of setting up a first-tier tribunal with multiple chambers is the opportunity to save money, to allow for the pooling of resources into a single pot, which then can be allocated flexibly in line with demand and will allow for tribunal users to access specialist services that they made not be able to otherwise. I was concerned to see recently that members of Welsh Tribunals will not be getting a similar increase in their pay in comparison to their English counterparts. Will the Welsh Government guarantee that members of a future joint first-tier tribunal for Wales will have pay of similar levels to their colleagues in England, or the concern is that we will lose people to tribunals across the border? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the point. This is a matter that, obviously, was discussed between the First Minister and the president of tribunals, and, indeed, me. Considerable time and thought was given to the decision on the pay award for members of Welsh Tribunals. Our decision was to award 5 per cent compared to the 7 per cent awarded by the UK Government for those sitting in reserved tribunals, some of whom, of course, do also sit in devolved—. Some sit on our tribunals but also some in non-devolved tribunals. So, our decision was taken bearing in mind the overall financial position, budgetary constraints, but also the importance of valuing public sector workers equitably. No sector for which Welsh Ministers are the primary decision makers on pay matters has received more than 5 per cent for the 2023-24 financial year.
There is an intention to establish parity within the tribunal system, and the reform of our tribunals provides an opportunity to do that because the issue of reform and the creation of a first-tier tribunal system, and indeed an appellate structure, isn’t just on the percentage rates that might apply in one particular year to tribunal members, but it is about looking across the six or seven chambers that there will be, how those will operate, but also the broader terms and conditions, the amount of time there is for preparation, the amount of work in particular types of tribunals, and so on. So, I think, as part of our tribunal reform, there is actually a broader need to look across the whole picture of what will become the Welsh tribunal system and to look at how this can be achieved. That is something I believe is part of the preparations for the legislation and part of the issues that will arise around it, and that there will be a need to have that engagement broadly and, indeed, with members of the judiciary themselves, in order to achieve something that is at least as equitable as, if not better and more appropriate than, what exists at the moment.

Recruitment and Retention of Magistrates

Gareth Davies AS: 5. How does the Counsel General work with the UK Government to encourage the recruitment and retention of magistrates in Wales? OQ60794

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. The justice system could not operate without the many dedicated people who volunteer their time and expertise as magistrates to help their local community. The appointment of lay magistrates is undertaken by the Judicial Office, not the UK Government, and there are no magistrate vacancies or recruitment issues within Wales.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you, Counsel General. Firstly, I'm happy to acknowledge that the issue skirts around the boundaries of devolution, with policing and justice not being devolved responsibilities, and His Majesty's Courts and Tribunal Service being the responsibility of the UK Government. But it's a matter of concern that there is still a severe shortage of magistrates in Wales, in contradiction to your remarks, which, of course, causes significant delays in the criminal justice system. This means that victims of crime are not seeing justice in a timely fashion, it means that the Crown Prosecution Service is reluctant to prosecute, knowing the pressures that the courts are under, and it means that those who are being prosecuted have to wait too long to receive their day in court and have their defence heard. The number of magistrates in Wales has fallen considerably—a 42 per cent reduction between 2009 and 2019—and many more are due to retire in the coming years. We know from attitude surveys that the vast majority of Welsh people would prefer a closer working relationship between the Welsh Government and the UK Government on such matters. So, I’d like to ask the Counsel General how the Welsh Government is working with the UK Government in order to recruit and retain magistrates to ease the over-burdened criminal justice system. Has the Counsel General considered extending the mandatory retirement age of magistrates, which is currently 70, as a short-term solution to this problem? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, just taking that last point, the mandatory age of magistrates, and so on, is not a matter that's devolved to us, or that we have any control over, but I take the point that's there, because it's also one that's issued in the other courts. Can I also say that I've met recently with the new director of public prosecutions? I met also with the Judicial Appointments Commission recently. The issue of magistrate shortage is not one that has been raised and not one that I'm aware of. In fact, the information I have is that there isn't an issue with regard to the shortage of magistrates. Certainly, there's an issue with the shortage of magistrates' courts, because half our magistrates' courts have been closed under the Conservative Government, which has massively undermined the availability of local justice.
The issues that are being raised are, of course, the availability of skilled lawyers, for example, in the prosecution of cases, which primarily relates to the low rates of pay that make it almost uneconomic for lawyers to engage in the criminal justice system. That is an issue that Lord Bellamy, the current Under-Secretary of State for Justice, raised, and I raised that with him in terms of the Inter-ministerial Group for Justice. But it is an issue in terms of funding that is in the hands of the UK Government. The issue in terms of the Crown Courts, of course, is not only in terms of those skills. You may have heard on Radio 4 this morning Lord Thomas and others discussing the issue of the enormous backlogs in the Crown Courts in England. I have to say that the arrangements in Wales are actually working far better than in England—that there aren't those particular backlogs—but there is a very serious issue generally, but very specifically in England, with the criminal justice system. It comes down to the use of resources that there are and it comes down to the availability of resources and, essentially, the underfunding of the justice system within the UK.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 6 [OQ60767] has been withdrawn. Question 7—Delyth Jewell.

The Rights to Images

Delyth Jewell AC: 7. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding the rights to images of dying or dead relatives in hospitals during COVID? OQ60780

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. Everything possible should be done to avoid causing additional distress to families and loved ones impacted by the COVID pandemic. I am aware that images were taken across hospital settings during the pandemic by local health board staff, which is a matter for the relevant local health board.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch. I'm raising this issue on behalf of constituents and bereaved families who were devastated to find out that pictures were taken of their dead and dying relatives in Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny and the Grange University Hospital in Cwmbran. Now, these constituents have been advised that, legally, people's rights cease to apply after death. That is a brutal reading, but perhaps you could provide an assessment about the legality of those photos that were taken of patients dying in hospital. Is that matter different? Because, disturbingly, if it's possible to obtain the metadata of these photographs to know the time and place they were taken, those individuals can be identified, and these photos capture the most horrific moments of their lives. They could not possibly have consented to them being taken.
So, what assessment would you make, please, about the applicability of the right to privacy under article 8 of the Human Rights Act 1998, that is the right to control how information about your private life is shared, including photographs that have been taken secretly?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the issues about rights to images are relevant to, as you say, privacy, to human rights and to data protection laws, alongside, of course, a wider consideration of the issue of consent. So, such matters must be treated with the utmost care and sensitivity. I am aware that, of course, this is a matter that has been raised by the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice and it's been raised in the COVID inquiry on 28 February 2024, and no doubt that will be given proper consideration by that inquiry.
I understand also that the relevant local health board took the matter, and any concerns raised by families in relation to those images, seriously, in particular they considered the issues of consent and acknowledged the concerns of families with a response. Now, this is a matter that has to be dealt with by the local health boards, but, of course, it is very important that in such sensitive areas, the legalities of this, the human rights and the issues of consent, are of the absolute utmost importance, and I support the Member in the principles that you are raising there relating to this.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 8 [OQ60768] has been withdrawn, so question 9—Alun Davies.

Legal Advice

Alun Davies AC: 9. Will the Counsel General make a statement on what legal advice is available to Ministers? OQ60783

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The legal services department of the Welsh Government provides advice to Ministers and officials across Government, but in addition, as law officer, I also provide advice directly to Ministers, and as Counsel General I provide the definitive legal voice of Government.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for that, Counsel General. We have, over the last few years, debated and discussed a number of legislative consent Orders and motions and memoranda coming in front of this place. And we have seen an increase in terms of the UK Government attempting to usurp the powers that should be here. But we've also seen Ministers here using Westminster to legislate, and quite often the reason given to committees is that resources aren't available here in order to legislate here in Wales's Parliament.
Now, we agreed the final budget yesterday, and I would be grateful if the Counsel General could reassure me, and other Members, that all Ministers have all the legal support they require in order to produce a legislative programme for Wales that goes through this place, rather than being sent to London.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that question. Just in respect of legislative consent memoranda, well, of course, these are all areas where the UK Government is legislating and is wanting to or considering legislation in devolved areas, and therefore, under the Sewel convention, requires consent. You'll be aware of the number of these legislative consent memoranda, and supplementary memoranda, which really are a product of the UK Government's legislative programme. I'd say there is no significant proactive use of UK Government Bills to legislate. From time to time, circumstances arise where UK Government is going to legislate in an area, and if we took the view as a Government that there is some substantial benefit to that legislation operating within Wales, provided it doesn't take away or usurp the devolved responsibilities and powers that we actually have, that may be justifiable, on the basis that, in order to legislate separately within Wales, it might mean that we were legislating later, or it might mean we have to divert resources from other important legislation. It would also mean that the UK Government's programme of legislation would effectively be determining what our legislative programme should be and what our legislative priorities are. So, it's one of those things that has to be balanced. And, of course, there are many occasions, as the Member will be aware, where legislative consent is sought and is refused, or where there are changes made to the UK Government legislation in order to protect our devolved responsibilities that we have. So, it's by no means an uncomplex situation, it's one that is often changing, week by week and month by month, depending upon the nature of the UK Government's legislation.
The Member will also be aware of the number of occasions where we have refused permission to legislate, and that permission has been overridden. So, I think the premise that was suggested that the Welsh Government is seeking, is going out and proactively seeking, opportunities for UK Government to legislate is one that is wholly wrong. The reality is that we do often have to react, we do often have to engage, and we do everything that we can in order to protect our devolved responsibilities and position. But from time to time, there is legislation where we are not in the position to expedite, where Welsh citizens would suffer if that legislation did not appear. Now, all I can say, I think, is that the issue of resources is not really just a question of budget. It is actually a question of the very, very detailed skills that are needed by those who are involved, not only on the policy side, but on the legal services side, and also in the legislative drafting side. So, it's not something that can just be switched on and off very quickly. So, sometimes, priority decisions do have to be taken.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 10 [OQ60786] has been withdrawn. Question 11—Jack Sargeant.

Justice for Orgreave Campaign

Jack Sargeant AC: 11. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government regarding the justice for Orgreave campaign and getting justice for Welsh residents? OQ60772

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question, and thank you for raising this issue. There has been a demand for a public inquiry into the events at Orgreave. I remain of the view that changes to the law are essential to avoid similar miscarriages of justice, and I last raised this with Lord Bellamy at the Inter-ministerial Group forJustice in January.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful for that answer, Counsel General. Forty years since the miners' strike, former miners have still not had justice. Thirty-five years since the Hillsborough disaster and families are still waiting for justice. The scales of justice, Presiding Officer, as I have said many times before in this Chamber, are tipped against working-class people, against working-class communities, and in the favour of the powerful and the establishment. I'm grateful to the Counsel General for how he has championed the need for a law change in terms of the need for a Hillsborough law, and how he also has fought for those former miners and their families. Counsel General, will you speak to Welsh Government officials, to keep conversations going with the Hillsborough Law Now campaign, and provide the Senedd with an update on what you believe needs to happen to get the Hillsborough law we clearly need?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for your question, and you're right, it is 40 years since the miners' strike. I was a lawyer involved in that, acting on behalf of miners during that particular strike. I saw many of the events that occurred during that. I saw many of what we now know as miscarriages of justice, and I am also very, very familiar with the events at Orgreave. I represented a number of miners in the long Orgreave riot in unlawful assembly cases—cases where every miner was acquitted and the majority of miners then took civil actions and succeeded in civil actions for malicious prosecution.
I've met since then with the other lawyers who were involved in the case, and with two Home Secretaries, to press the case for an inquiry, and the independent police complaints commission also said they didn't have the resources for an inquiry, but there was merit in the case for a public inquiry.
The reason why the inquiry is important is because had the lessons been learnt from what happened at Orgreave, events might have been very, very different at Hillsborough. I'm enthused by the fact that the Labour opposition has promised that, with an incoming Government, they will bring about an inquiry into Orgreave, and I think it is important to know that chain of command that led up to the operations that took place in Orgreave—who gave the commands, how those events occurred, and how it is that there were so many cases that were brought on evidence that subsequently turned out to be false or misconceived.
I will continue to monitor this. I just think, in this fortieth anniversary year, when you are hearing on the media that so many former miners who are basically, still to this day, traumatised by those events and the beatings they took at Orgreave, and what happened subsequently, which could have resulted in many of them being put away for long, long prison sentences, there is still an injustice that impacts on our Valleys in south Wales, north Wales and, indeed, the mining communities in the rest of the UK, and there is justice there that still needs to be resolved.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, question 12—Alun Davies.

The Northern Ireland Agreement and the 'Safeguarding the Union' Command Paper

Alun Davies AC: 12. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the potential impact on Wales of the Northern Ireland agreement and the Safeguarding the Union command paper? OQ60796

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, we welcome the restoration of the Northern Ireland Executive as a key part of a functioning UK devolution settlement. But we still await a detailed explanation from the UK Government of many aspects of the paper, to allow us to fully assess the financial, operational and constitutional implications for Wales.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Counsel General, for that response. I've raised here on a number of occasions the potential financial impact on the structure of the United Kingdom fiscal system of the agreement with the parties in Northern Ireland. And it is a great disappointment that the United Kingdom Government seems to have reached an agreement that they're now not willing to defend or explain in public, and I think it is something the Welsh Government needs to pursue with the United Kingdom Government.
But also it appears to me that the United Kingdom Government are giving assurances, if you like, to the unionist community in Northern Ireland that there will be both changes to the regulation of the market, whilst at the same time saying that there will be no changes to the regulation of the market between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. You can't ride two horses at the same time. Either we remain essentially in the European single market, in terms of the regulatory environment, which is managed by the UK Government, or we are not and we diverge from the regulations of the single market. At the moment, however many years it is since we left the European Union, we're still largely within the regulatory orbit of the European Union, and I welcome that. But it would be useful for us as a Senedd to understand from the Welsh Government, if the United Kingdom Government seeks to diverge from the current EU regulatory environment, what impact that has on us, our legislation, and what impact it has on the relationship between the countries of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the points you raise are absolutely right. We need to know what the detail is, because, inevitably, with our proximity to Northern Ireland, and with the trade connectivity that we have, it's important we understand what the nature of that market is, what the accessibility of it is, and what the trade implications and the economic implications are. I will be chairing next week the inter-ministerial standing committee where the representatives of the Northern Ireland Executive will be present, and I look forward to welcoming them to that and for a discussion with them. But what I can say, of course, is that we have asked the UK Government to provide more detailed information. Regrettably, we still await that detail to be able to fully assess the implications of the command paper. It is disappointing that, on a matter such as this, a request is made, a request is agreed to, but the information does not arise or does not arise in an expedited or a timely manner to enable us in this Senedd to be able to discuss those implications.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Counsel General.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 3 is questions to the Senedd Commission, and the Llywydd will answer the questions. The first question is from Gareth Davies.

Translation Services

Gareth Davies AS: 1. Will the Commission provide an update on the availability of translation services into languages other than English and Welsh? OQ60795

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Senedd Commission is committed to supporting an inclusive Parliament. Commission materials are published in languages other than English and Welsh on a case-by-case basis, taking into consideration the nature of the project and the likely target audiences. The Commission is exploring the use of a telephone interpretation service for individuals seeking public information about the Senedd and the services it provides for people whose first language is neither English nor Welsh. Members are able to claim for translation and interpretation costs from their allowance for office costs and constituent liaison when they are incurred in order to enable the performance of the Member's duties, for example, in relation to casework. It's the remuneration board, of course, that sets the level of those allowances in the determination.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that response, Llywydd.

Gareth Davies AS: I inquired in November last year as to the possibility of translation services for languages other than Welsh and English and I was informed that this was something that the Commission would look into. I recognise that English and Welsh are our primary modes of communication, of course, and we have an excellent translation service here in the Senedd, but the demographic make-up of Wales is changing and it's important, as Senedd Members, that we're able to communicate with our constituents when they are seeking redress.
The need for additional services is one that I've encountered when assisting a family who have rightly sought redress into the death of a loved one, a grave matter that they deserve to be able to access the full facts in relation to, albeit including complex and clinical terms. I am sure this is a growing issue for other Members too. I'm also aware that the NHS, UK Parliament and most civil service departments offer a translation service for languages other than English and Welsh, but currently this is not available in the Senedd.
A translation service of this kind obviously carries considerations of cost, but I would be grateful if the Commission could provide an update as to whether they've undertaken an assessment regarding the growing need for a wider translation service, if there is a threshold at which one would be considered, and if the Commission has made enquiries as to the cost of implementing such translation services for languages other than Welsh and English. Thanks.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you for the supplementary. As I said in my initial response, Members who are undertaking any casework, as you obviously are, with people whose first language isn't either English or Welsh are able to use their office costs allowance for the purposes of translation. Obviously, there is a limit to that office costs allowance of £25,000 per Member. I would hope that that office costs allowance would be sufficient to cover some of the costs you've needed to incur for your constituents. If not, and if there is an issue here and a growing issue that you've outlined, then representations to the remuneration board would be useful to make the representation that the office costs allowance needs to be looked at to be extended for the purposes of accommodating this work, should you feel and any other Members here feel that the allowance that's in place at the moment is insufficient to meet the needs of your constituents. Because I quite clearly agree with you that some of our constituents need to be communicating both with us as their elected representatives and possibly with any public authorities that they are engaged with in a language that is understood clearly by them. So, if this is an issue that you don't think that the current office costs allowance adequately caters for, then I'd be interested in hearing your exact experience on that directly and perhaps we can have that discussion outside of this Chamber to see what other measures need to be looked at, and whether that office costs allowance is insufficient and that the representations need to be made to the remuneration board.

Employees with Caring Responsibilities

Carolyn Thomas AS: 2. How does the Senedd Commission support employees with caring responsibilities? OQ60771

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: A significant proportion of Commission employees have caring responsibilities. The Commission understands that those with these responsibilities may be facing additional stress in attempting to balance their work commitments with their caring responsibilities. In recognition of this, the Commission has in place a specific carers' policy, which has been developed in consultation with the trade union side. The policy provides advice and guidance to employees and their line managers as to what support is available to everyone. The aim of this policy and supporting policies is to support employees to remain in work, to fulfil their career potential and to meet their caring responsibilities.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for your response. Post COVID, with new ways of working and communicating, I have chosen not to have a fixed office in north Wales, enabling staff and me to work flexibly from home or hubs and cafes across the region, meeting people in various locations. I welcome recent news that the homeworking allowance will continue for employees. Continuing with hybrid working in the Senedd here for Members has enabled those with caring responsibilities to be able to continue and bring in valuable experiences to debates and discussions. Looking at wanting to achieve gender quotas, women are still, very often, the main carer, but I am aware that here there are exceptions, which is fantastic. Do you agree with me that, if we are to achieve a diverse Senedd, that hybrid working can be an enabler?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Yes. I agree most definitely. I think it's almost a shame, isn't it, that we were led down this path of hybrid working, flexible working, working from home, not feeling that you need to have a constituency regional office in your area and can work more flexibly around that—we were led down that path primarily by COVID, and we were moving too slowly, probably, as a society and as a Senedd before then, in taking some of these actions and enabling all of this to happen. So, that's a positive, most definitely. It's a positive for all of our staff, all of us as Members, all of our constituents as well, who are able to work from home or work in a way that allows more flexibility in their lives. As a society, that's a really useful contribution to our society and to our economy. But we always have to remember, as elected Members here, that we have constituents who, due to their working arrangements or the work they do or, in fact, their economic circumstances, are not able to work in that mode, and, as elected representatives here, we need to strive to ensure that they are also looked after and allowed to lead the fullest possible lives that incorporate all aspects of life, both economic, social and family.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And, finally, question 3, Jack Sargeant.

Supporting the Welsh Youth Parliament

Jack Sargeant AC: 3. How does the Commission support the Welsh Youth Parliament to engage with other youth parliaments? OQ60764

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Since establishing the Welsh Youth Parliament, the Senedd Commission has facilitated opportunities for Members of the Youth Parliament to meet with their international counterparts, for example, taking part in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association biennial Commonwealth Youth Parliament. Members of the Youth Parliament have met Commonwealth youth parliaments in India and Trinidad and Tobago, and we will be bidding for places for Members of the Youth Parliament to attend this year’s CPA meeting, which will be hosted by the New Zealand Parliament.
We use every opportunity to showcase the work of the Welsh Youth Parliament on the world stage, and we've engaged with other youth parliaments, including the Scottish Youth Parliament, Jersey Youth Parliament, the Regional Council of Brittany and, more recently, with the New Zealand Youth Parliament, to exchange knowledge, ideas and opportunities.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm grateful for the really positive response to the question posed this afternoon. During a recent Senedd delegation visit to the Falkland Islands, I and colleagues Alun Davies, James Evans and Laura Anne Jones, met with the Falkland Islands Youth Parliament. We were all really impressed with the work that they're doing and their vision for the Falkland Islands, but particularly impressed with their work around mental health, Llywydd. This resonates so much with the work of our own Youth Parliament and, in particular, their report, 'Young Minds Matter'. Given the priorities of the two youth parliaments are very much aligned, will the Commission seek to find time for an online conversation between our Youth Parliament and colleagues in the Falkland Islands to discuss how the parliamentarians can discuss and work together on matters of interest in the future? Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That's an excellent idea, and I'd be keen to facilitate that. It's encouraging to know that, in two youth parliaments from two areas so far away from each other in the world, the young people are interested in discussing mental health issues, that they are issues facing young people all over the world, due to some common circumstances around social media and all kinds of other areas of common interest, I'm sure. So, I'd very keen, with you and the delegation of Members from here that visited the Falklands, to pursue how we can put that into practice between both youth parliaments. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Llywydd.

4. Topical Questions

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 is topical questions. There is one topical question today, which will be asked by Russell George.

Vote on Industrial Action

Russell George AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on consultants and specialist, associate specialist, and speciality doctors in Wales voting for two days of strike in April over pay? TQ1010

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's disappointing that consultants and specialty and specialist doctors have voted to take strike action, but we understand the strength of their feeling about the 5 per cent pay offer. The £168 million funding announced today by the Chancellor for Wales is already planned for and known by the Welsh Government and accounted for in our spending plans. We will work with the British Medical Association and NHS Wales to ensure patient safety is protected during industrial action.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. I also thank the Presiding Officer for allowing this topical question today. This week, both the Welsh consultants and SAS doctors have voted overwhelmingly to take strike action over pay. This follows, of course, two rounds of action taken by junior doctors and a 96-hour walkout later this month, and that's a record first. Now, this comes, of course, on the back of the worst pay offer in the UK, it's the third set of strikes, and it also will, of course, add pressure onto the already existing longer waiting times that we have in Wales in comparison to the rest of the UK. And, of course, there's the financial cost as well of the strike action.
Now, the cost of meeting the additional 1 per cent payment for consultants and SAS doctors, recommended by the independent review body, would cost £6.5 million, according to a response to a written question from us as Welsh Conservatives. Now, I know, Minister, you will say that there is no more money, but, later today, we'll be spending a considerable amount of time talking about Senedd reform, and we know that cost. We know that cost is £17.8 million per year for the additional politicians that some Members would like to see. So, this is about priorities, and this is about decisions that are made here. So, can I ask you, Minister, to return to the negotiation table with a credible offer for doctors in Wales to avoid further disruption and to avoid the even more millions of pounds that will be spent on covering the industrial action that could, of course, otherwise be put towards pay restoration?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. The 5 per cent increase for 2023-24 is, I'm afraid, at the limits of the finances available to us, and reflects the agreement reached with the other health unions for this year. We, of course, remain committed to working in social partnership with the British Medical Association, and are available for further talks at any stage. We will work with the NHS andunions and partners to ensure that lifesaving and life-maintaining care is provided during the industrial action, and patient safety is maintained.
I am pleased to see that there is additional funding for the NHS by the Chancellor today, but, as I say, that was additional funding that we had assumed would be coming for us and is already written into our budgetary plans. But I think boasting, like he did today, about the 13 per cent increase over the term of the Parliament—five years—is not that impressive, when, under the last Labour Government, spending on health increased by 4 per cent in real terms every year. Between 2010 and 2019, we saw the most prolonged squeeze in the history of the NHS, in terms of spending, which on average rose by 1.5 per cent. The Health Foundation published data showing that the UK spends 21 per cent less on health than the median EU average, and 39 per cent less than Germany. We have demonstrated in the past that, when we have money available, we have gone above and beyond the recommendations of the pay review body.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: As I have mentioned many times here, the NHS is nothing without its legions of diligent and dedicated staff. But it is the defining, and highly regrettable, paradox of our health system over the past decade that, as the demands on the NHS have increased significantly, the value that is placed on the work of its workers has diminished.
Having seen their real-terms pay eroded significantly since 2008, it's entirely unsurprising that so many hard-working but perennially undervalued NHS staff in Wales are sending a clear message that enough is enough. As we've heard, consultants and specialist doctors are the latest to announce that they are undertaking strike action.
Given their extraordinary devotion to the profession, I know that they will not have taken this decision lightly. But the strength of feeling is clearly underlined by the fact that 86 per cent of consultants, and 94 per cent of specialty and specialist doctors, voted in favour of the BMA strike ballot. We stand firmly in solidarity with them, and I would urge the Government to get around the negotiating table as soon as possible with a credible offer. This should include a demonstration of intent that your commitment to the principle of pay restoration is more than simply warm words and vague promises.
Doctors deserve the certainty that this Government has a clear strategy, underpinned by realistic time frames for translating this ambition into reality. Could the Minister therefore explain the precise figure needed to restore the real-terms pay of NHS doctors in Wales? How long will it take to get this money into their pockets? And why isn't Keir Starmer's Government in waiting pledging to give you the resources to achieve this?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. We know that the NHS only works because of the immense commitment of the staff who work within it. We have more people than ever working for the NHS in Wales, now numbering more than 105,000. I agree that I don't think that the consultants or the SAS doctors took this decision lightly. I understand the frustrations.
I hope that the public and the NHS consultants and SAS doctors have understood, and have seen, how we in the Welsh Government have prioritised the NHS in our budget. We have been around the whole of the Cabinet table to ask them to shore up the service, which is so close to people's hearts. We have increased the NHS budget by about 4 per cent in Wales next year, compared to the 1 per cent that you had seen planned in England.
I think that consultants and SAS doctors are more aware than anyone that the flow of patients through our hospitals is a particularly challenging issue, and an issue that we are unlikely to resolve unless we keep supporting a fragile care system. The money for that care system comes from the same pot as the NHS, and we are absolutely committed to paying the real living wage to our care workers, which does continue to be a budget priority for us.
I think that it's important for everybody to understand that we are committed to pay restoration, but at the moment that is very, very financially challenging, as you are aware. You saw the books. You have been involved in the budget process. Plaid Cymru has never—never—put the NHS in the priority list of what you want to see prioritised. It was not part of an agreement. So, I think that it's important that we all understand that, of course, we want to see this matter resolved, and we continue to be open to further discussions with the BMA.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 today is the 90-second statements, and first of all, we have Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The inspiration for International Women's Day began with 15,000 women marching through New York in 1908, seeking shorter working hours, better pay and the right to vote. This prompted the Socialist Party of America to declare a first National Women's Day. In Copenhagen, an international conference of working women from 17 countries unanimously agreed in 1910 on the need for an International Women's Day. Austria, Denmark, Germany and Switzerland seized the moment, but the date of 8 March was chosen to commemorate the 1917 strike by Russian women demanding bread and peace. Their strike led to the abdication of the Czar, Russia suing for peace and the new Government granting women the right to vote—a great day to celebrate women's fight for justice and peace.
In 1975, 8 March was recognised by all 144 countries of the United Nations, and the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, CEDAW, was adopted four years later. Each year, every country is examined on how well they are promoting the rights of women and girls, Wales included. So, how well are we doing? On the plus side, we have the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, the public sector gender equality duty and, last year, Cardiff became the first city outside the US to adopt CEDAW.
But women continue to get 14 per cent less pay than men for doing the same job, so women work the equivalent of two months of the year for free on top of doing a greater share of unpaid work at home. The cornerstone of this discrimination is an assumption that all women become mothers and are the primary carers of children. Every year, thousands of women lose their jobs because they're pregnant. That's illegal if you've been in a job for six months, but extremely difficult to challenge, unless you're in a union—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jenny, you need to conclude, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Childcare continues to be a constant juggling act and gender-based violence is a public health epidemic. The women's struggle for bread and peace continues.

Cefin Campbell AS: This week marks the two-hundredth anniversary of the foundation of the Royal National Lifeboat Institute, the RNLI. Since 1824, RNLI volunteers have saved the lives of almost 13,000 people in Wales, and nearly 150,000 people across Great Britain and Ireland. My own region of Mid and West Wales is, of course, a coastal one, and between Burry Port in the south and Porth Dinllaen in the north, there are 16 lifeboat stations in the region.
Every week, from Tenby to Fishguard, Newquay to Borth, and Aberdyfi to Abersoch, hundreds of volunteers give up their time freely to train to save lives at sea. When their pagers go off, even in the middle of the night or the dead of winter, those same volunteers never hesitate in responding to a shout, putting their own comfort and safety on the line to deliver others safely back to shore.
Can I therefore use the opportunity presented by this two-hundredth anniversary to record my thanks, and I'm sure on behalf of everyone else here, for the service given by RNLI volunteers past and present, and my gratitude to the families and communities who support them?

Cefin Campbell AS: A heartfelt thanks to you all for your excellent service, the RNLI.

Buffy Williams AS: Today, across Wales, our communities come together to commemorate a pivotal moment in the history of our nation, the fortieth anniversary of the miners' strike of 1984. Four decades ago, Wales was home to a network of proud mines and proud miners. Rhondda alone, with its rich mining heritage, housed over 70 mines that fuelled not just industry, but the very heart of my constituency. The miners, the backbone of our communities, embarked on a courageous journey in 1984, enduring a prolonged strike that lasted months.
The impact of this strike rippled through the families and communities of Rhondda and across Wales, leaving scars on the lives of all the families it touched. The sacrifices made during those challenging times are unimaginable, as families faced fear and anxiety through tough economic hardship. The struggle was real, but so was the unwavering spirit of our miners and the wider community who rallied around them, supporting them on their marches back to work and in their voices, 'Coal, not dole'.
As we reflect on those times, we must express our deepest gratitude to the miners who stood tall in the face of adversity, who in no uncertain terms found themselves in a war against the then Conservative Government of Margaret Thatcher, a Government whose decisions have had a lasting effect on our communities to this day. In honouring the fortieth anniversary of the coal miners' strike, let us not only remember the challenges faced, but also celebrate the strength, resilience and unity that emerged from this struggle. Together, we pay tribute to the miners who shaped the history of this country and acknowledge their enduring contribution to Wales, to Britain, and to the world.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I'd like to pay tribute here in the Senedd this afternoon to a team of Welsh heroes who are nearing the completion of an unbelievable challenge that will raise much-needed funds for a very worthy cause. A group of enthusiastic cyclists, led by Rob Boyns from Ruthin, are part of the Welsh team taking part in the Doddie Aid challenge.
They've almost completed an epic bike ride from Edinburgh to Rome—yes, you heard me—all the way from Scotland to Italy, linking up all the six-nation rugby stadiums as they go, cycling through Dublin, Cardiff, London and Paris on their way. Now, they've been on their bikes for a week, and nearing the end of their journey; the latest is that they've just crossed into Italy, and that the finishing line in Rome this weekend is now within sight. As part of their journey, they've stopped in Monaco, where Prince Albert gave them a rugby ball, which Rob and the lads will have the privilege of taking onto the pitch at the Olympic Stadium in Rome, for use as the match ball in the six nations game this Saturday between Italy and Scotland.
Now, this Herculean effort is all in aid of the My Name'5 Doddie Foundation, which raises awareness and funding, of course, for motor neurone disease. The overall challenge has so far raised well over £300,000 for this amazing cause, and let's all do what we can to support them and help them get over the £400,000 mark. You can give to this fantastic organisation by visiting the JustGiving page and searching for 'All Roads Lead to Rome'.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: So, best of luck, Rob, and all the team, and I hope those legs can continue to turn the pedals all the way to Rome for an exceptionally good cause.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank Members. And that brings today's Plenary proceedings to a close. We will take a 10-minute break now before the Committee of the Whole Senedd meets to consider Stage 2 of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. The bell will be rung five minutes before we reconvene, and I would encourage Members to return to the Chamber promptly, please.

The meeting ended at 15:13.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip

Sioned Williams: How is the Welsh Government ensuring that disabled people's rights are being supported?

Jane Hutt: The disability rightstaskforceis working to determine what additional actions are required to best support the rights of disabled people. The Welsh Government has set up a legislative options working group, who are considering how the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities could be incorporated in Wales.

Sam Rowlands: What assessment has the Minister made of poverty levels in Wales?

Jane Hutt: Our approach to tackling poverty is informed by those with lived experience of poverty and by research and analysis from organisations such as the Bevan Foundation and Citizens Advice Cymru. This evidence is informing our initiatives, which alleviate financial pressures, maximise incomes and keep money in the pockets of Welsh citizens.

Rhys ab Owen: When will work begin on collecting evidence of experiences of conversion practices in Wales, as set out in the Equality, Race and Disability Evidence Units Priorities 2022 to 2027 plan?

Jane Hutt: This research, aimed at understanding more about the experiences of conversion practices in Wales, started in May 2023. Evidence will be used to inform future policy and service development and communications in relation to conversion practices. The research findings are due to be published in autumn 2024.

Peredur Owen Griffiths: What preparations is the Government making to support refugees from the conflict in Gaza?

Jane Hutt: Wales is committed to being a nation of sanctuary. We have successfully welcomed people seeking sanctuary from across the globe. If a Gaza resettlement scheme was developed, we would ensure Wales played a full part, but the UK Government has no plans for such a scheme.